Ray,

A few weeks ago in your tips newsletter you wrote that you thought anti-spyware and anti-adware programs were a scam.  Could you please elaborate why you think so and if you were referring to programs such as Spy Sweeper and Ad-aware as well as free programs?

Thanks

   I thought that I explained it then.
   I tried a few spyware programs several years ago when they first became popular and they showed all kinds of spyware and adware on my computer.  I would clean it all and the next day it would all be back.  It seemed from running the spyware and adware programs that my computer was continually infected by hundreds, if not thousands, of spyware and adware.
   The thing is that I have not used a spyware or adware cleaner for several years.  Is my computer loaded down with spyware?  No.  Is it loaded down with adware?  No.  I surf the internet just like anyone else, but no one is spying on me or inundating me with ads.  Yet the spyware and adware programs at least imply that if I don't use their program, my computer will soon be overtaken by spyware and adware.  It hasn't and it won't.  It is a scam.

at the risk of being band from the site i have to respectfully disagree. I think it depends a lot on your surfing habbits. maybe you pratice safe surfing but not everone does. In the 10 or so years i have been working on computers i have seen computers so clogged with spyware/adware that they wont even run, or if they do they have popups even when offine. toolbars are spyware too, and i have seen up to 6 different toolbars on a browser at once. anything thet gets installed on my system that i don't want on it is in my mind spyware/addware/malware even more so if it does not come with an uninstaller. you say " I surf the internet just like anyone else" but i doubt you surf the same sites i do. or the same ones my customers do. visit the wrong sites and i will bet you money you will get spyware/addware/malware/toolbars and other things you do not want on your system. install most apps without making sure to uncheck all the little boxes and you will have all kinds of " new programs " on your system.  as far as the programs you tried, i would say they were a scam. still are programs like that out there. stick with the ones with a good rep. and don't run more than 2 on your system at a time alond with a good antivirus program and you should be fine rickp. some of the best out there are free. ad-aware, spybot S&D, and spyware blaster.

   The two programs that I tried were SpyBot and ad-ware.
   I do go to dangerous sites, sites that are more dangerous than the sites most people go to.
   You said that you would bet me money that if I visited the wrong sites that I would get spyware/addware/malware/toolbars and other things I do not want on my system.  You are on.  I'll let you keep your money but tell me the wrong sites and I will go there and report what happens.
   For those of you that do not realize it, Internet Explorer already has built in measures which protect (usually too much) against spyware and adware.

I have tried both adware and spybot and over a period of two years all that they ever removed were tracking cookies, which of course, you can remove yourself easily enough.
Having been to several sites in that time frame that I am sure would have loaded something on my computer if they could have, I would have to agree that people generally infect their own computers by rash actions.
Just my own opinion, based on my experience.

i also would have to agree that people generally infect their own computers, most of the time. key word here is most. the topic was anti-spyware and anti-adware programs being a scam. i do not think they are. spyware adware and and toolbars are far more common than viruses. I work on maybe 5-7 systems a week. 20-30 a month including house calls. i find maybe 2 viruses a month. Almost all of the computers i work on have more than 2 toolbars that the owner has no idea how they got there , and are loaded with spyware. If you run one adware.spyware remover and it says you have brand X spyware, maybe its a scam. if you are like me and run 3-4 different ones off of your flash drive and they all say you have brand x spyware, you most likely have brand x spyware. if you are going to say spyware adware removers are a scam then you must also believe antivirus programs are a scam. but i'll bet you both have some kind of antivirus software running.I will agree that IE has come a long way. but i don't think its fool proof yet.

oh, and i'll have that list soon Ray.some of them i cannot post here for obvious reasons.

one more thing, if you never run any detection programs, how do you know you don't have anything. its like saying you are disease free, and have never been tested for disease. it makes no sense.

   How does a person know that he is disease free if he has never been tested for disease?  That is easy.  He is not sick.  He has no symptoms.  This brings us right back to my first point.  My computer runs fine.  It is not sick.  Yet if I were to believe the antispyware programs, it should be very, very, very sick by now, because in the several years that I have not used their program, their program has not removed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of spyware which it would have removed if it had been on my computer.
   dlwolff0 makes a good point.  Much of what antispyware programs remove are cookies.  If you understand the structure of a cookie, there is no way that a cookie can spy on you.  If a cookie cannot spy on you, it cannot be spyware.  Cookies actually make your life on the internet easier and faster.  But why then are antispyware programs listing cookies as spyware?  Because they want your computer to appear to have thousands of spyware on it when it does not.  That is a scam.
   Just because someone has no idea how a toolbar got on his browser does not mean that person did not approve the toolbar to be put on his computer.  I have never seen a toolbar that did not first ask me if it wanted to be put on (I am sure that they exist, but I doubt that is what you are removing from those peoples' computer).  AND just because there is a toolbar on the browser does not mean that it is full of spyware.
   It is a good thing that you are not really betting.  You bet that I have some kind of antivirus software running.  No, I do not use antivirus programs (this fact is stated a few times on this forum and in my newsletter).  It is easy to avoid viruses.  I don't believe that they are a scam though, because if you were to run an antivirus program on my computer, it would not find a virus.
   Yet, if you were to run an antispyware program on my computer today, it would find thousands of spyware.  That is a scam because there are not thousands of spyware on my computer.  Those thousands of "spyware" have not affected the performance of my computer and not bothered me for the several years that I have not had an antispyware program, so why should I waste the time every day to clean them off my computer?  And is it smart to continue to waste that time every day when the antispyware program is just removing the same "spyware" over and over again?
   I guess that I should say, that, yes, antispyware programs do find valid spyware on a computer (if it exists).  I do not dispute that and I have never said that it doesn't.  But my point is that when an antispyware program reports thousands or hundreds of spyware found, the number of real spyware is not in the thousands, hundreds, or even tens.  For most people, it is 0.  That is a scam.

I joined this site (besides being a SuperWin fan) just to repond to this thread.

FYI, Spyware does NOT usually slow the computer down - that would be self-defeating.  What it DOES do is "steal" bandwidth, or Internet time.  So, if you're experiencing slower and slower Internet speeds, you've probably got at least tracking cookies, keyloggers, spiders, etc. on your rig.  Personally, I simply don't like the invasion of privacy but I REALLY don't like paying my Internet provider for others to use my service and my computer, even for "marketing purposes".

I am a retired software engineer, but I don't consider myself an expert.  I have however, over the last year, spent a lot of time researching this whole computer security matter.  What I have found is that even the experts are scrambling to keep up with the bad guys.  Most of the security software out there fails to protect -  they are built on old strategies/technologies.  This includes the software mentioned in this thread - Spybot, Spyware Blaster, Ad-Aware (even the 2007 version are very weak).  So, simply because the software you are using doesn't find anything doesn't mean that you are NOT infected.  To use Ray's example, if you test for influenza, and the test comes back "clean", does that mean you are healthy?  No.  You may have anything else that was NOT tested!!! Because of this, most people do NOT know if they are sick.  And by the time they do, often it is too late.  Take, for example, cancer.  By the time someone "feels sick" from cancer it is in a progressed stage.  And what will the doctors say?  "Well, if we could have caught it sooner....")

So while "ignorance is bliss", anymore, this naive attitude is something that the "bad guys" are taking advantage of.  A recent survey on one of the security forums revealed that close to 40% of computer/Internet users have "unprotected" machines!  The hackers have turned that into a big money business.   Unprotected computers are prime candidates to be "harvested" into part of a "bot" network.  I don't remember all the details, but a woman was recently arrested who was selling entire networks of private computers to hackers that she had installed rootkits (hidden processes) through the Internet.  When needed, these computers could be accessed remotely to broadcast malware.  (Her biggest network consisted of 400,000 machines!)

Realistically speaking, unless you're behind a hardware firewall (like those that are on the newer routers) AND using some kind of detection software, simply using your computer while connected to the Internet puts you at risk.  While you may not care about your machine, to my mind, we all have a social responsibility to protect each other with this. (Just like the uproar now over the lawyer who traveled around while knowingly infected with a treatment-resistant disease.  Would you have wanted to sit next him on one of those planes?)

I would like to close my post by making some recommendations for security software for those interested.  These recommendation are from my own experience of testing and tests made by independent testers and testing companies.

Avira's Antivir and Eset's NOD32 have the best detection rates of anti-virus programs for the home user.  (There are better systems available, but these are for corporate users that utilize expensive hardware as well for detection.)  Antivir and NOD32 now both include rootkit detection.  Avira has a free version that is almost as good as the paid, but you have to use it manually.  The latest Kaspersky products are right up there, too, but some people have conflicts/problems installing/using them and find them overly complicated to set up.  Norton 2007 is also pretty good if you can stomach all of the extra processes that Symantec uses to make their products sell each other. (Users tend to call all of Norton's products "bloatware", and Symantec has had to provide special removal tools to completely remove their products!)

AVG's Anti-Spyware is the best A/S.  They also have a free version.  Spyware Terminator is another good free A/S program, but it does not have the detection ability of AVG.

The best and easiest-to-use personal firewall is COMODO's (what a name , huh?) Personal Firewall.  It passes ALL of the leak tests (outbound data "leaks") in its plain, vanilla setup.  And it is free.  COMODO also has a free A/V, but it is still in beta (testing); and a free anti-trojan program, CBOClean.  A lot of long-time users swear by BOClean, but it's latest release was problematic.

The latest technology for malware protection is HIPS (Host Intrusion Prevention System).  It watches your entire computer and prevents malware from installing or operating.  The latest HIPS designs combine signature dectection with heuristic/behavior detection AND sandboxing (running unknown/suspect processes in a separate "virtual" area "outside" of the normal operating system area.  If you want to check these out, you can get trial versions of Safensoft's Safe'n'Sec Pro, SanaSecurity's SafeConnect, or the best, PREVX2.

For what it's worth, Internet Explorer 7, while better than 6, is still riddled with security weaknesses.  This, combines with the fact that because it is the most widely used browser, automatically makes it a prime target for hackers.  (Case in point, Micro$oft recently released a security patch for IE7.  That same day, hackers exploited a weakness in the patch and sent out a new virus.  Micro$oft had to release a patch for the patch the following day!)  The more savvy users are switching to Firefox for their browser of choice and only using IE for their Windows/Office updates.  Firefox is more secure and currently there are fewer hackers trying to "break" it.

If you really want to have a head-in-the sand approach to malware these days, if you are not a Macintosh user (most malware doesn't affect Mac's operating system and software), you may be in for a rude awakening one day.

   I really hate to rehash all of this.
   If you know how to avoid viruses and spyware, spyware is very easy to avoid and it just is not the problem that you and the antispyware companies want people to think it is.
   If, on the other hand, you open all attachments that you receive, click on links in spam emails, go to porn or warez websites, and allow the spyware to install itself when it asks to, then, yes, it will be a problem and, yes, you need antispyware programs.
   Put yourself in one of the two catagories.
   I fall into the first category and I do not have spyware or viruses on my computer.  My computer runs fast and effieciently even though it is many years old.
   My children fall into the second category (they don't listen to their father ).  They use antispyware and antivirus programs and yet their new and better computers are much slower than mine.

   Is not what you say contradictary?  You say that spyware does not slow down a person's computer but then you say that it uses all of the bandwidth, slows down the internet speeds, and uses the computer for marketing purposes.  That all slows down the computer.

   I just would rather teach people how to avoid spyware and viruses altogether instead of teaching them how to load antivirus and antispyware programs (which report things as spyware that do no spying whatsoever) on their computer and be paranoid about something that is easily avoidable.